IRE Asks: How do you define player driven?
One of the popular questions thrown around mmo forums lately is "where are the player driven MMOs?", to which the poster will receive few replies. Modern MMOs might have player-driven features like EVE's economy or Mortal Online's territory control, but no MMORPG exists that can define itself as a truly player driven world. Instead we usually see a Diku base thinly layered with sandbox, but rarely can players leave their impact on the universe in any sort of meaningful fashion. Of course, player driven and sandbox can be mutually exclusive as one refers to a concept and the other to mechanics. Is it possible for a theme park mmo to be "player driven", or must it adhere to the strictest definition of the phrase, ala Second Life?
The beauty of user-generated content.
Finding a balance between player driven concepts and sandbox mechanics seems to be the most difficult thing facing mmo developers, as some players will run miles if given just an inch. But there's not much else to do after seeing all the rides at a theme park. So what do you consider the proper balance? How can players feel like they belong to an enormous, immersive world that they have the control to shape, without a bunch of bullies to come dump water in your sandbox?
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Interesting to note, within
Interesting to note, within the chaos of Second Life and Active Worlds, there were several RP communities that ran their own worlds, by their own rules. There has to be a way to define smaller consensus communities or else you end up with one big generic nothing--this is why Reddit has thrived while Digg has withered. "Player-driven" doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, it means players help define what the consensus is. By this definition I think Eve Online qualifies; they even invited elected tribunals from the playerbase to come to HQ for a tete-a-tete. IRE games, too, are driven in large part by volunteers and players. It's all a matter of degree, of course.
that is a really good point
that is a really good point
yep yep
yep yep
hmmm.... I guess. Though
hmmm.... I guess. Though there is a lack of custom content in eve...
That's a really interesting
That's a really interesting point.
+1 Bravo
That IS interesting.
yes it is
yes it is
Superbly said.
Superbly said.
to me player driven means
to me player driven means that the story itself is constantly evolving as is the world, due to player influence
^That
Pretty much what Hhaos said
I agree
I agree.
I'll have to concur.
A player-driven environment is one that was mainly a result of interaction between players or even players and admins (in our case, Divine), one in which most of the changes were effected by players, or at least from the ideas of players.
I'll have to agree with Hhaos here!
YUP
Having players be able to take active roles in creating things, playing in politics, being able to destroy, changing the economics...
Sums it up nicely, yes
Sums it up nicely, yes
I much prefer the idea of
I much prefer the idea of player-controlled decision points, rather than just complete chaotic anything-goes...
I totally agree.
I totally agree.
Yep
I agree as well.
Nailed
You hit the nail on the head.
agreed
The evolution of the stories, and thus the game, in IRE MUDs is mostly player driven even if not seen by the general populace on a day-to-day basis.
I agree with Hhaos and Tukio
I agree with Hhaos and Tukio
Does depend on the maturity
Does depend on the maturity of the playerbase.
Completely agree
Completely agree
fully agree
fully agree
Agree times three
Agree times three
Agreed
Agreed
my questions is, when does
my questions is, when does the developer intervene to prevent playerbase from making 'bad' choices with the game?
Too often in Achaean events.
Too often in Achaean events. :/
I agrree
I agrree
I suppose a good call would
I suppose a good call would be when the effect of letting players have their way would result in exploitation of 'weaker' players in terms of economy, or if there are serious ethical questions that are raised and an administrative position needs to be clarified.
But developer intervention, in itself, is a form of player-driving events wherein players force a response from the administration.
Constantly! :>
Constantly! :>
Isn't
minecraft player run?
passion, passion, passion
passion, passion, passion
Technical
Quite a technical article
Yes
Need passion and dedication..
I like Achaea's system --
I like Achaea's system -- player-designed items, player-run Houses and cities with administration guidance. Sometimes the administration can do too little or too much, of course, they're human, but people with a larger view of the game help keep it 'on track' so to speak, instead of devolving into complete ruin at the hands of a few.
true but..
certainly true, but sometimes I wish the Divine would sit back and let us make our own mistakes every now and then, though then they'd have to be willing to not know what was going to end up happening in world events until it happens.. as it is they kind of make all the choices, but that certainly has its points, like that we stay on some sort of common track, not everybody doing their own thing!
perhaps..
a really big story, kinda like a D&D super-adventure.. a story arch that will last for a year and will have soo many pathways, each depending on the actions of the players. It's not that each player will have this story differently, but the continuation of the story will be based according to the large decisions and actions of many people. Kinda like when there are events with two possible outcomes that the players can influence.
But too many big-arc stories
But too many big-arc stories end up in players having event fatigue. Or, as we like to call it in Lusternia, Event-rue.
so pace it
arrange it to happen in normal event time, but on the same story.
"The beauty of user-generated
"The beauty of user-generated content." is a placeholder for actual article? Because as is it has nothing worth of reading. Also I'm kind of surprised by lack of advertisements, back in the time it would be "addictive IRE games" and "free" in every second sentence.
The problem with a MMO is
The problem with a MMO is that you can't please all fo the palyers all of the time - all of them come looking for different things in a game - some want high Fantasy, some Low. too many want baked goods! You just can't have events for all fo them so that leaves you with oputting the events out there and letting players interact with them to push it towards one of several predetermined endings, depending on what happens. When there is only one ending and everyone can see it, thats where players disassociate from it. You have no events and tehy will just kill each other or cuddle or both.
hmm
I think of player driven as being able to move around and interract with people without obvious limitations. In IRE games you can do many things, but in graphical MMOs I've seen there's really just this line of quests until endgame where there's raid/battlegrounds and that's it.
Yes, this is very much it
Yes, this is very much it
agreed
agreed
The second life
...do as thou wilt, in MMO as well as in RL!
Therefore, I am more keen to consider a player driven world more similar to the Second Life concept, that a God driven world like WoW or others.
Theoretically, God(s) or whoever should the gameplay rules only, its physycs, and letting the players mould their own way, change the world and finally be able to bend those rules.This is happening in RL, so the same should happen in any virtual realty, for it to be free, or truly player driven.
On the other hand, as to an "World Aquarium" metaphore, I would like to fly out there, not just swim.
haha
Yup.
I define
it as the player having a say in things
Everything roleplaying I've
Everything roleplaying I've seen lately in Imperian.
Player Driven
To me all IRE content is player driven to a point otherwise there would be no content to speak of. If there were no players to take part in the fantastic world that has been created there would be no world at all. If there was no Mhaldorian to vanquish the the "good" then what would the "good" guys do (other than pick weeds). The whole reason for the games is to give players a place to move towards whatever goal they set for themselves.
player driven is where the
player driven is where the game provides the universe but the players provide the story.
^
That
hard question
Would take more effort to think of an answer than i can be bothered with.
Heh
.
more divine interaction would be nice
The divine in achaea do an awesome job, but when they do interact it usually involves a whole city and quite possibly the whole world shortly after. Wouldn't it be cool if the divine interacted with people in smaller groups or even one on one from time to time. There is really no substitute for interacting with another human.
I've noticed the (active) divine
tend to be receptive to ideas for roleplay when you drop them a message
that would be nice if more
that would be nice if more did that
credit
aint got time for a real one today
Achaea is only SO player driven
After all, nobody can truly become the warlord that crushes the entire world under his heel. He'd get issued away :)
Influence
People influence events, cause events, and pretty much have consequences felt all over the place. Something like that.
One of the things that kept
One of the things that kept me hooked to Achaea, was when I discovered that all the cities were managed by players. I've always found that really interesting, and still do.
Ditto
I was used to other muds where there were cities, and maybe even mechanisms to choose one to be a "citizen" of in the sense of it being your home base for certain coded purposes, or belonging to this chat room rather than that, at best, but players didn't actually have any control over them at all.
Achaea is a whole different matter.
I played WoW and the lack of
I played WoW and the lack of player impact upon the game world just made me miss IRE more. :P
player driven
Player driven is when I have the reins in my hand instead of a denizen having the reins in his. Then I am driving.
I feel like the Iron Realms
I feel like the Iron Realms MMOs get it pretty much right. The library system is really what gives the world a player-impacted world, and that really helps with the immersion aspect, I feel.
Any time when you can put in
Any time when you can put in player driven design.
When there's stuff that is
When there's stuff that is centered around what players do, not when it's all already predetermined. But stuff like Ascension is pretty player-driven!
Crafting
Oh how I hate crafting the same thing that 500 other people make, over and over to level up crafting on a graphical MMO.
I agree completely!
I agree completely!
Achaea is a good example of a player driven economy
One great thing is Achaea's player driven economy. Clothes, enchants, inks, forged items are all mostly player made and sold. Part of it is the maturity of the playerbase, but really great job evolving it!
Orgs
Factions are a big part in any RPG, and player-run government goes a very long way towards why Lusternia's orgs feel the way they do. It really affects how the whole game feels, even when (especially when) recommending the game to new players.
the whole...
the whole raid and area control is a large part of it. keeps the playerstense because of other players.
player controlled cities and orgs
:)
Hence why I stopped going for Gods.
You get too dependent on them for RP, and then when they poof, you're basically... WELL WHAT NOW?
ummm.
ummm.
The game reflects the state
The game reflects the state of the (most active/known) player-base, for better or worse.
MMOs run by people who
MMOs run by people who actively play the game.
When you pull your hair
When you pull your hair because you got disconnected
This is a really interesting
This is a really interesting subject, one I haven't really thought too much about. I do enjoy what people are saying though. It's nice to hear other's opinions.
Sometimes ...
... you gotta save people from their own stupid.
I love that
A player driven world allows the player to drive thier own story in a way that they want. Sure, free roaming chaos results in bad things, but the degree that Achaea and games like it allows the player to choose thier path is incredible.
Look at EVE Online, that is
Look at EVE Online, that is an MMO that has sandbox down to an art. Yes, they fell on their faces this summer, but they have made a remarkable recovery.
EVE ONLINE is a prime example
EVE ONLINE is a prime example indeed. I agree!
PG content
Player generated content is but the crux of what helps to develop a online world. A game like second life gives the user more tools then any place that can exist. 8 years player there, and still chugging along. What do I do? Nothing :P I explore the worlds generated by people, see the RP communities and enjoy simple bliss of being able to just do this simple thing. Look me up Pypo Chung if you're a SL dweeb :P
However, back to the point. Evolution is based on what specific forms revolve around what drives people to do the things they love to do. In text based mmo's players don't revolve around the story. As much as admins, gods, and all these types gift opportunities to get people involved with storyline. In Lusternia before we even got the two new cities. Pypo was a giant binge-drinking taurian with no other interests. Once the new worlds came, i could take drinking to the next level! However...that doesn't drive me to give 2 shits about protecting the elemental planes or saving the world.
This isn't Kiddy land where everyone wielding a magical sword can save the world. Even if there is some who wish they could do that. The ways in which we involve our players is the key thing that keeps people comming back to do more. For some it might just be seeing friends....look at Aetolia for the lack of ACTUAL RP content going on...90% of time idlers or obcessed Communities revolving over petty fighting and political battles. Both of which ARE rp...but there are some groups who tend to umm...dramatize it like a personal attack on one's own being.
Some people want to involve themselves as if story focuses on all their deeds throughout the world...I'll let them have it, while i enjoy pulling carpet out from under them...I been DYING to know in Lusternia why there has never been any Souless worshipers or even secret societies in getting the souless gods back. The most recent lore events actually gave us a small glimpse of this specific thing.
When one player's actions can
When one player's actions can so drastically affect a large portion of the world, such as in my case, I call that player driven. When big RP moves and such are not ignored by Admins and they can evolve into massive city-wide crises, just because one player had an issue with another, that's player driven
I think that achaea used to
I think that achaea used to be player driven to an incredibly extent. But, a number of things stick out to me as being points of the breakdown of that system. One of these was the elimination of ascention, and second was around the time that houses were instituted. At around the time of the latter divine interaction started to wane significantly. And the divine were characters that made the game interesting. In addition to divine interaction there was fairly easy interaction between denizens and players. I remember several events between Aztecia and Zarachnor, for example. There was even an adventurer that was so misogynist that the gods turned him into a woman. The time that Sartan told the Eleusian women to bake pies for their men and that he liked blueberry. Sure, these things are a little bit silly at times, but they made things a lot of fun. I think that we still have a great realm, don't get me wrong. But I feel like there was a lot more room for player driven roleplay back about 3 or 4 years ago then there is now.
I recently became more driven
I recently became more driven by a Divine and friends. Actually having someone telling you to complete your set goals gives you that energy to try harder.
My experience with the game
My experience with the game has painted it as rather player-driven so far. Certainly compared to other games that are out there.
+1 Ditto
Mine as well.
The player base makes it fun
The player base makes it fun
Agreed
Agreed
Agreed. Simplest way to say
Agreed. Simplest way to say it! Though, the Divine do have a set of abilities that regular players don't, giving them more options. Roleplaying with Divine has its rewards, as well.
Do you mean...
Those people who just buy everything out and mark them up?
Hm
The work between admins and players in IRE really keeps me involved, I have to say. Great stuff!
Well
I feel like I have an impact on my world in Lusternia. Not so much in driving new content - more like, able to do a lot with the current content. IThe game is very player driven because of the strong focus on implementing political systems affected by the playerbase. There are org politics, village politics, aetherspace politics, family politics, alliance politics, clan politics, order politics and more.
Also, everybody loves Iosai. There is a real sense our suggestions, ideas, complaints are considered and implemented if appropriate.
Hmm...
I'd say the proper balance (if one is in fact aiming for a player-driven world) should fulfill the following criteria:
1. If all the players want something to happen, or a substantial number want it to happen and the rest don't care, and it makes sense in-universe that their characters should be capable of making it happen, then they should be able to make it happen.
2. It should be impossible to cause something major to happen without those affected having at least a chance to stop it. The more major the change, the easier it should be to stop and the harder it should be to counteract attempts to stop it.
3. It should be impossible to detrimentally affect players' characters directly in a durative manner. Changes to the world can affect characters, but nothing direct.
4. Any major changes must be motivated by role-play. (This is to keep the bullies under control; of course, people who roleplay bullies are a different story, but then people can use the world's player-driven nature to make it less bully-friendly, and meanwhile criterions 2 and 3 will keep things from becoming more than an obstacle to be overcome.)
Alternatively, one can go for a conflict-free player-driven world, but where's the fun in that?
I think
Nope can't say I really get it...
I dont know either
What this article is reeally about.
player-driven
Not having played places like wow or the others mentioned I think aetonia and lusternia take in player comments/input on a constent bases. We can't have complete controle otherwise things would be crazy. We do though have a large freedom in these games and our input is taken into account and even sometimes sout.
Well...
I do believe we build the world of MUD games despite the fact that most historical events are out of player control, but at the same time we make decisions, for example which houses and cities the Alchemists would fit into after they arrived etc etc. So fun! But yeah we wouldn't be able to control every aspect it wouldn't make sense.
Player driven
I make the rules muhahahahhahaha
:)
:) Another hi to Mortagona!
Agreed
I agree with Hhaos' side, but I like Aleil's way to say it best.
Simple
Administration needs to hand over power to players. The more handed over, the more player-driven - when players can design and contribute to events, that's when these games shine.
Or turn into absolute chaos
Or turn into absolute chaos
Not necessarily, imo. There
Not necessarily, imo. There still needs to be a bottom line that the administration can give, as Divine IG.
Yes, shine through the total
Yes, shine through the total chaos, if that's what you like...
wheels on the bus
wheels on the bus
I definitely would not want
I definitely would not want more 'player driven' Achaea than it is now. It is a good and healthy balance now. We have all the opportunities to 'drive' our characters almost any direction we wish, with administration/Tecton 'driving' the world, so we can all co-exist and have fun in relative harmony.
When the real importance is
When the real importance is the interactions with other players, versus the game system itself.
Limits are important
Players love knowing that what they do in a game can affect lasting change, but without mechanical constraints and admin oversight, you will inevitably see griefers driving others away. It can be a difficult balance to create and maintain a healthy roleplaying environment.
Very true. Admin need to be a
Very true. Admin need to be a guiding force, both encouraging and moderating RP arcs.
Balance is key
Balance is key with these things. Players can't be trusted to abide by the RP rules of the universe all the time.
Concurrence
I concur with the previous two comments. It's a difficult thing to accomplish. Even most MUD text based games, (which have alot more potential to be truly player driven in my eyes) seem to have very little success in this area. So it's not suprising that most MMO graphic based games, such as runescape and WoW seem to have so little to be said for thei play driven aspects of the game. the most I've personally seen for this area, is clans and such. not that great. but then I haven't played either of these in YEARS, so they may have added some. but my point still stands I think.
Permanence to anything that
Permanence to anything that anyone does is cool for sure, but it's definately an issue. It's so easy in a DnD game to just have characters going along and seeing the world change as they do things. It might be possible (and quite fun) to run a parallel party who's doing other things, maybe directly against the first party and having it affect the first party. But Lusternia (and really any MMO) is like a DnD game within DnD games, within DnD games...it's just impossible (I feel) to let every single thing every person does have an effect on the world itself. On the otherhand, interactions with players is something that the players can do themselves, and that can trickle up to make big changes.
Relying on player input
well in a real world fantasy it makes sense
Total player
driven content.
permanence would be cool
permanence would be cool
or not
or not
yeah....
Probably not