IRE Asks: Is it "unfair" to call for raid assistance over Skype?

A Ssyrian Diabolist drawn by MMO artist Chris Bourassa.

MMOs are entertainment, something we play for fun in our spare time, right? And the beauty of Iron Realms games is that there are so many avenues to explore – you can fight, roleplay, participate in politics, explore, or even become a famous merchant. You can essentially pick and choose your fun.

 

One complaint your often hear, however – usually from people defending or attacking a city – is that when a largescale battle occurs, lots of players mysteriously jump into the game out of nowhere.  Some players argue that while this is not against any game rules, it’s unfair to the players who are already in the game when the fight begins because it’s misleading. Imagine attacking a city with ten soldiers at the ready, and then as soon as you breach the walls, twenty more appear. 

 

On the flip side, what about those players who play the text game just because they like the combat? They can’t be blamed for that, and it would be unrealistic to expect them to sit in the game idly for hours on end, waiting for some skirmish to occur. 

 

Do you think it’s unethical for players to log in just for raids? On one hand, it’s frustrating to their opponents – but on the other hand, a major selling point of IRE text games is the freedom to participate in whatever aspects of gameplay you like best. Where do you stand?

 

Comment below!

Comments

Are you saying that if I happen to login during the raid I would not be allowed to defend the city?  What about my character's obligation to do just that?  How would I be able to justify it IC?

 

Besides, nobody can tell me when I should or should not play and this entire IRE question makes no sense to me at all.

Raid denial is already done in other games.

I don't play other games and 'raid denial' for login in the 'wrong' time would ruin the game

So your proposal is to make RP suffer?

 

"Hey, get over here and defend the city."

 

"Can't!"

 

"Why not?"

 

"Can't say." Or some other psudo IC reason.

 

Joining a raid at anytime is IC, not joining when the character would normally...no IC.

 

There is northing about skype that has any bearing on roleplaying, unless it is used to bypass IC interaction.

Granted it is not particularly pleasant having to deal with people that call in citymates/allies through skype, i'm willing to bet it works both sides of the fence, there is bound to be people out there that call over skype as soon as they see a significant portion of the 'enemy' is not around to coordinate an attack.

When it comes down to it, dealing with metagaming with that respect can be a very touchy area and would be tough to balance out fairly - as said earlier, it would not be fair if someone happened to log on a couple of minutes after a raid started, having just got home from work and they are effectively 'locked out' from participating.  For some of us it is difficult enough to find things to participate in due to time differences and often being fast asleep when major events organised by the admins start, it is not particularly fair to be locked out of spontaneous activities too, if that is the case the character might as well not exist or be left idling online 24/7 (which incidentally would be considered in violation of AFK rules)

You are joking, right?

I LOVE BANANAS THEY ARE YUMMY.

I like Bandannas

I have a blue one im very fond of.

I agree, bananas are good

I think we got sidetracked.

For big sieges and raids and such? I don't entirely know....I'm torn. If its some huge in game massive conflict, with the first of many battles of inter-city war? yeah, sure, go ahead, get EVERYONE who can, that's fun. But if its a general Highcastle, or something? Or even less important like taking cities.....unless you're there, and someone goes on GT, CT, OT, or SCT (and even then, OOC societies can be a bit iffy) then no. But really, try and be as IC about stuff like that as possible. 

Ok

I'm ok with it but I don't have Achaea friends' contacts.

Its not fair, but there is no way to stop it, so i guess it does not really matter whether people do it or not.

I can't imagine that raiding while none of the enemy combatants are around would be very fulfilling. I don't really mind if calling reinforcements in via some other device happens.

Still metagaming!

I have thoughts about the feelings that others have felt within their feelings expressed within this topic... I like cheese.

yay bananas.

vanilla..

If they can do it, you can do it...they aren't stopping one side, so just do the same thing...if its really bad to get people logged on for almost any reason, then i'm sure they'll stop it...

I log daily to check the news and get the 5 lesson bonus, I confess. I can play only in weekends for RL commitments. I do not understand how anyone should have RP reasons to log in. It is just an awakening. I checked another MUD and metafaming, skype specifically, is excluded too, because it spoils the game, and it does indeed.

Credit

In Lusty at least, for the most part, raids don't really matter all that much. Yeah you might have to birth more daughters. but the only big deal is if something like DLs or whatnot get taken out, and thats not exactly something that happens all too often.

As much as it might "spoil your experience", one person's experience is not another's. Not to mention too, that this all counts on a big "player trust" system. Can you trust players to not pass on information that would determine the outcome of a raid? I don't mind, say, "Shallam versus Ashtan again! Come raid!", but when it gets to "Shallam is being completely rolled by Ashtan, come help Shallam defend/Ashtan win" then that starts to violate the matter of IC knowledge being passed around OOCly. Which can't be really stopped, but if you agree to those rules and don't abide by them how does that benefit you in any shape or form?

if someone has fun raiding, whats wrong with telling them a raid is going on so they can come around and have fun as well. Most people wouldn't say its unacceptable to contact a friend IRL to let them know an interesting RP event is going on, would you? There's really no difference between the two situations.

it is fine just don't do it every single time

Not sure how many people actually do it in Achaea, I only heard it from Mhaldor so far. I don't think it's unfair, though, just highly out of character.

let me see... did my opinion change toda? nope still the same :)

I still think it's metagaming

Fudkin said: "I still think it's metagaming."

 

I say: "No more so than schedualing a raid to take advantage of people being asleep. Which is also metagaming."

People abuse OOC things for their advantage all the time.  A prime example is "off hour" raiding.  If calling some friends on skype can combat that issue, I see not problem with it.

if you consider all of the people not playing at the moment, just sleeping, so it's like waking them up in emergency.

read above

^

^ ^

new

new post

I don't think it's weird to log in just for raids, but to specifically call for help when a raid is happing via some sort of instant messenger is perhaps not the best way to go about it. It just makes me think of people who log into their ages old alts to vote for their friends so they don't lose their political positions.

 

Metagaming is not really cool.

Not the same thing as all. Nothing is wrong with voting for friends granted they are good candidates. The actual problem is people not being informed and voting simply based on recognizing a name. People waking up to vote are often uninformed of current situations and that is the actual problem.

 

For myself when I went inactive I neither voted, nor logged in to get city/guild credits. I passed on the 700+ credits I could have gotten, because I didn't think that would be fair to the people who were actively supporting the city/guild.

I demand instanced 1v1 fights every time I fight! *shakefist*

I personally do not think just logging in for raids is something to be complained about, especially if it evens the numbers, however the one thing that is the worse is raiding with complete uneven odds as well as for long time periods, the above can really affect those on the other side in game especially if they constantly login to that. The games are suppose to be fun for everyone 

Hmm

It's unfair. Not everyone uses skype, thus giving you an unfair advantage.

It's also metagaming, and should be frowned upon.

Three credits says Malinx agrees.

Have to agree with this one.

 

But I'm not going anywhere near that bet.

Most things are unfair. One side has better fighters, someone has a better computer, someone has a poor connection, someone else is a better programmer. Nothing is ever even.

They do it in world of warcraft and call of duty type games so why not here.

If you call batman

Doesn't matter if you like it or not, if it's fair or not, etc.

 

Stuff like this will happen in whatever game you play. Hell, it happens in real life.

I hate being MSN'd to join an Ashtani or Mhaldorian raid or Icon battle by someone who has forgotten that this guy plays someone on the other team... It is a good heads up I guess but always annoying.

Dun lol'd

The pains of being popular, Sir? :p

Is it wrong? Probably. Will that change anything? No.

Its not fair but if everyone does it, it evens itself out, right?

It's unfortunate when this occurs and it "unevens" a raid, but it's not really different than being unlucky, if a few more of the enemy city citizens log in, by chance. And there's really no way to tell the difference to enforce a..forbiddance of this, etc...who cares!

I know it depends on the person. I enjoy raiding, even if it means I die twenty thousand times.  So though I don't have alts, and if I am on skype Im probably already in-game ... BUT, I'd like the warning if there is a raid. It's great to hear and know about, but RP-wise, yes its a disadvantage, but people use it anyways, so ... why not?

meh

i dont realy care haha

It's very ooc but, how do you tell a random log in from a skype call in? That's the trouble.  it's very ooc

gimme

more, more

yep im still after those free credits...

see above

...

credit

 

...

...

...

see above for more credit whoring

...

even more credit whoring

.

.

.

these free credits are building up

 

...

credit

...

...

1!

!!!

- 1

- 1

BREAK THE CHAIN!

Efcyjfdujv xdygdchi.

Heh

Heh

I read through this in the hopes of posting something....now that I am at the end...my brain is to tired to think about what I wanted to say...

 

Skype is just another OOC Clan...It is fair and it is unfair.  This is the nature of life, enjoy.

  

Meh

My biggest problem with that is that would require out of character interactions. The actual calling for help part seems fine.

While such 'coordination' efforts have been around for the duration of the game, and while it is not likely to stop anytime soon, it is also a form of metagaming and is sort of 'bad form', especially when it's only used to gank over and over and over. 

I wouldn't say unfair. I would just say that's a pussy move.

 

Everythings been said already.
If you don't like it, don't do it. If you don't mind, then why not, go ahead.
I myself am not connected OOCly with anyone, but if I had the chance, I probably would log in for raids etc.

All you need is a connection to the IRE live feed, and you've got your notifier that things are happening. You may be a little late to the party, but it's still not as bad as calling all your friends to prepare to start something.

Pretty much.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is that some people specifically play for the PVP.  If they weren't being called in by Skype, they'd be idling at the entrance to the city/centre of the city/whatever the idling location is.  I'm sure you all know it.  Entering the gates of Stavenn, Kinsarmar Crossroads, the Redwood Path, Antioch Shuk, whatever's appropriate for the org.  Every org has one.  Is it better to have them idle and just peek in every 10 minutes or so to see if a combat excuse has begun, or is it better to have someone tell them, "Raid's on"?  It's the exact same effect.

I consider people logging in specifically for PVP no different than people logging out specifically to avoid it.  When I first started playing IRE games, I didn't even know what an alias was.  I manual'd everything, and it was slow.  I could barely heal well enough to hunt.  When combat started, you know what I did? I logged out.  I don't, anymore, because I no longer have the issue of having my capacity to play the game obliterated by the existence of combat (though, as anyone who's fought me on Imperian knows, I still can't fight), but there are people who specifically play for RP (admittedly my primary, if not exclusive, motivation for playing), and I see people who play exclusively for PVP as very little different.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is this: Iron Realms games are just that.  Games.  People play them to have fun.  If PVP is what is fun for them, then that's what they're going to play for, and asking a friend to notify them when there's PVP going on is every bit as legitimate as asking a friend to let you know when they're going to be free for a game of LoL.

(Yes, I understand that LoL is not a roleplaying game and it's very "out of character", but so is your reason for playing, and if that's their reason for playing, then more power to them.)

This. Said it all.

It's good to know I'm not talking to myself.

Coincidentally, my motivations for playing and my character's motivations in life are pretty similar, so my reason for playing actually is IC. I also personally find it a bit odd that there're people who play for one singular reason, but each to their own, I guess.

It's just a sign of the times and where technology is at.  Not to mention people are naturally compelled to be competititve and have their raid party be as superior as possible.

Yes

Quite unfair

Yes

Quite unfair

So yeah

I'd say against the rules.. ^^

Mkay kids, unfair mkay

I'm all for them calling more people in for us to kill!

I agree with those that are against, but that nothing can be done about it.

it might be an OOC way to contact, but people cannot stay all day logged in daydreaming as they do other activities, like work, study or whatever. Calling them for a 15-30 min raid is an information that should be available in OOC manner. Or make everybody get an addon on the webbrowser that shows new IRE messages, so IC messaging would be enough

I suspect that the real solution would be to just have everyone do it. We all have internet connections, of course

Do people really go that far though? I thought raids all took place randomly.

Nobody really raids nowadays, it's more or less dead and people are involved in every day conflict instead.

It's not unfair if both sides do it.

If it's used to ambush people by having a dozen raiders log on simultaneously and instantly converge on a target--then it's bad. Otherwise, fine.

Don't really have anyone on skype and I don't raid much so I don't know.

yes

very unfair

Hrm

Skype does make that Ather Disrupt ability of alchemist kind of less useful.

actually communicate via OOC methods for it to become ineffectual though? I do everything in-game, though I do log in quickly to do things like fix totems and restore the font if I notice it on the websites Org. Logs. Then I log back out because I have to do my actual work -_- 

But I don't really think it's... completely OOC in some sense. Rather, I take the time to notify myself of what's going on in the realms without actually being in there. I mean, for the most part, our characters shouldn't even really be able to "leave" the realms the way we do. So I take what I can learn via the Toolbar and website Org Logs/Messages as things I learn in-character, as I do have access to them. 

So I'm advocating that while you may learn of things OOC, in some cases, it's "essentially" the same as if you went in-game and learnt about them as well. The case of raiding is somewhat stronger than the above examples, but I feel that it's close enough to not be... unfair/illegal. 

I remember Qashar used to have some OOC chat protocol integrated within their system.

It's not really "fair" but it's also not going to stop.

So stop ok or im gonna cry

Who among us wouldn't tkae help however we could get it if we were being torn to pieces?

I'd prefer to know if somthing is happening

Doesn't really matter, because it won't stop either way.

Agreed

It's unavoidable now.

Agreed.

RP

While it may have advantages and disadvantages. I agree with the fact that it could easily be seen as someone waking another through roleplay to call them to aid. I mean would you not try to wake every available body in the case of an actual raid?

Good point.

I don't like it, but there's no way to prevent it.

Could argue just coordinating over skype is unfair as it bypasses things that would stop tells.

I dunno and I dun care If it is right or plain unfair...

No

It's not unfair. It's great to encourage your friends to play, at any time.

+

+

...

so yeah, it's pretty lame when people just pop out of nowhere and are battle ready in a matter of seconds. Even if I'm on the winning side, it just puts me off because it takes the fun out. Moreso if I'm on the losing side because.. well... you're already winning, why bring in more people?? lol. anyway, it's also a very OOC way to inform people via instant messengers but I guess it can't be stopped.

 

so I guess the best thing to do here is to just relocate your whole group to a different timezone and raid when everyone else is sleeping. xD

hahaha!

it's unfair, but can't be helped because people talk OOCly..

Only Skype.

 

Everything else is okay.

I don't use skype

Unfair

nope. Aint no rule.

In a game that has telepathic channels of communication I would totally use skype. 

admins already killed raiding in Imperian

^

!!11

How did they kill raiding? 

Eh

Really, if I'm on msn and mudding simultaneously and there happens to be a raid, I sometimes mention it in passing and the other person can decide whether they want to join in for themselves. It's a game, a place to have fun.

Debateable

I prefer to use mumble the memory and bandwidth usage is notably smaller and allows for larger groups. Also the text to speech chat system it has is nice for some of the more shy speakers or for saying something laughably hilarious in that cheesy robo voice.

 

In particular reading back tells from other players in game. Most already use party chat in game for coordinating information for groups such as targets and attack plans, or just notification to allies that they are being robbed/zerged by mobs.

It is in a way, but yeah it can't e stopped

OOC in my IC? Why, I never...!

Massively unfair. Plain and simple

Achaea has a very immersive atmosphere, what with all the OOC communication, trigger/alias programming, and people just blatantly talking about gameplay mechanics in-character. :x

Yes

Yes

But there is no way to stop it so may as well accept it.

^

^

OOC

Wouldn't that be a misuse of the OOC/IC paradigm?

Unfair, depends really.

My only problem with this is that it is a stepping stone towards real metagaming.

Probably, but it's not like you can stop it.

You can try and police it but people will always find a way. Waste of admin resources imo. I'd rather they work on useful things, and play their god roles and all :)

fair game to me.

Things are always planned ooc, I bet even the Garden does it and there's no way to stop it, not blatant ooc chatter I'm not into all that much, thats what I bought a clan for although seems a waste since everyone is on msn anyway.. So it can make raids more fun if things are imbalanced and rather than have people afk waiting for something to happen they can come along when something real fun may occur thats far better with more people.

Heh

All I can say is just TRY to take Highcastle or Veilgarden from Sar-Sargoth in Midkemia Online. There will be only a few players on when you start, and by the time the fighting actually starts, every last mother sucking one of them will be online.

 

Is it wrong? Probably. Does it violate the spirit of the game? Absolutely. Is there anything to be done about it, or any way to stop it? No.

 

And so we endure.

Go see TDKR

Hi Gyrth

OCC stuff? Yeah.

but if you can't beat em, join em! /end

^

+1 for being right

 

it's waking up the troops. If people are willing to log in on a short notice, they're allowed.

Meh

Meh

I don't see the problem with calling up friends to let them know a raid is going on, it can't be considered OOC as its the player informing another player that something is going down in game. The player then logs in and finds out what is going on IC.

I think skype would come in handy for raid co-ordination too, I have never had the opportunity to test this in a text game but it makes all the difference in graphical MMOs.

You don't see how this crosses the IC/OOC barrier?

 

Again, it's really not a big deal, and there isn't a way to stop it, but I mean it really is clearly a meta-tool.

 

Of course, it's also quite a bit meta to raid during "down" time... It isn't down time IC, it's just another part of the month, but OOC we all know that at 3am there will be fewer defenders than at 5pm...

 

Once more, only reason I care is to point out that it IS meta, not to suggest that it stop. I understand the impossibility of eliminating any and all metagaming from a virtual environment like an IRE game or a graphical MMO...

 

 
Poor Raiders surprised when the defenders come out of thier beds,
Really they should not be relying on an empty city...how would they know...
 
 

yes

yes

I don't mind if people call their buds to help with a raid - some people hurry and log out if there is a raid. We are all here to have fun!

I throw a flare out of my window

yes as it's OOC

Is it?

I don't see anything wrong with it, it's comparable to the other side waiting until they know not many combatants are around to start a raid, ICly they aren't going to know 'oh hey xy&z are out on some sweet epic quest, let's go raid!' what if they were home sleeping?! 

 

Nah

Nah

I think it's comical that people clamor for more RP, but use methods like this. People don't really know what they want, I suppose.

+1

credits, thx

 

skype is fair game.

ventrilo poor taste.

This doesn't particularly bother me unless someone is on an alt and given a heads up that there's about to be a raid, I know there is an actual rule about that but regardless I know it probably still happens and its still annoying.

Don't go overboard, I think it's fine.

That as long as you don't take it out of control and do it every time, and call 400 people for help, it should be okay.

If someone wants to win that badly, so much that they feel like pissing off people OOC then there's a problem. Iron Realms isn't world of warcraft. At least Midkemia isn't. I don't play to win, I play to make an interesting story.

Yes

Don't do it.

if the admin doesn't say it's illegal, it's just other people whining.

Like most players, I tend to find it unfair, but I also realize that there's not much that can be done about it, because it's not like IRE or the Mods can monitor what people do outside of the game, as far as this goes.

New content, please.

yay free credit

I don't think it's fair to use Skype... or any other msger to call in reinforcements for raiding. I don't think it's lame that some people only log in for raids, whatever floats their boat, but I hate the constant raids by those that can't find anything better to do because I'm not big on combat, but I will defend when I have to.

Heh

All is fair in war? 

ehhhh

no

because in RP you can also run around the place waking up people.

I don't think there's much we can do about this, so I think it's unfair to outlaw it as it would disadvantage those who play fair.

give em here!

It's not the end of the world. Most raids can achieve their goal quickly so if they're not able to log on immediately they're no help.

Some people might actually call for raid assistance BEFORE the raid begins.

 

Yes

^

I don't see any problem with it

It's also nigh-impossible to stop without getting draconian.

These free credits are so dang spammy.

 

As for the question itself, I'm very much on the fence about it. Different people play the games differently. From an RP purist's perspective - heck yeah, it's wrong wrong wrong. From a PvPer who plays to kick butt with their OOC buddies... it just makes sense.

 

There's no clear cut on this one, I don't think.

Credit comment.

yes and no. Annoying but I'd probably do it.

^

^

^

yes

Nope

No.

No.

No

^

duh

I hardly ever communicate with anyone out of realms, in fact I never communicate with anyone out of realms...

Yes, it's unfair. It's plain metagaming.

yes

yes

Yeah

Nah

sfe

If people are going to raid, they tend to do it when people are offline/sleeping to avoid combat, so it means that a potential defense can be organised - but on the other hand relying on out-of-game communication isn't exactly the 'fairest' way of doing it.

Credit comment.

maybe!

I suppose that the existance of forums probably means that some for of metagaming is always going to exist. Skype doesnt seem too aweful to me, really

no

no

Hmm

I had schnitzel for dinner. 

Unfortunately it is something that is impossible to protect against. However, I do not think it is fair especially in a RP intense environment such as this one.

yes

Metagaming is metagaming

meta voting is bad!

yes

Metagaming is metagaming

Not at all.

Doesn't mean it's not damned irritating, though. I'd get pissed if it happened EVERY time.

people do this?!  I guess if you have a friend who lives for fighting, it makes sense that you wake them for a big fight...

Credit comment.

no

no

very unfair

Yes.

At some point, if it balances things that would be better, because the attacker gets time to plan

so worrying about it is pretty pointless.

depends on if you're attacking or defending imho

I don't mind it, but I wouldn't encourage it.

Meta game much? You can't police it (nor should you) but in my personal opinion it's lame. I adamantly refuse to switch characters, for example, if I'm engaged on an alt, but something happens which they could really use my 'main'.

very unfair

No

Course not!

^See above.

Pretty sure Mhaldor does that crap and it's annoying.

and tough to prove, I dont mind if people do it.

+1

+1

Credit comment.

+

+

no

you wanted real time, you got it.

I would like a skype call when Events happen. I prefer to see them live than reading Events posts later.

I feel like it should be okay.

What fun is raiding without combatants?

I don't think it is so much necessary as unfair.

Logging in/out is OOC, skyping to log in is fine.

Credit

skype call everybody to sink Mhaldor for assisting Bal'met? Who says no?

Yes, but people will do it anyway.

If I am on an alternate I'll stay on that character.  If I am offline completely though, I will appreciate finding out if something is happening.

I think its fine if someone is logged in by AFK or something.  i think its poor form to fire up the bat signal though considering the other side is probably going off who they can see on QW.

I think its fine to use voip for party commands if you want.

nah

its a good counter to off-peak raiding

 

why would you want no defenders anywa?

lol

ololololo

No

No

I like and dislike this. Not very realistic, but getting stomped while you're watching TV is kind of sucky too.

is it fair for the other opponents to all have fancy artefacts of mass destruction, no it is not, but they do so we deal with it.

+

+

cr

cr

-

-

hm

hm

yes

yes

See why this should be a huge issue. 

credit

How is this any worse? As an aggressor, I'd appreciate it if the fight would otherwise be a joke.

No i dont think so

who gives a damn about fair in raids? Mhaldorians make sure they attack and exterminate when there is no one to defend anyway, so is that fair? Maybe it is fair to call for assistance, when assistance really is needed.

I'm not entirely familiar with the concept of raiding, but the way I see it: the more, the merrier.

Credit comment.

no it's only unfair over AIM

OOC was the only way manypeople found about about Shallam blowing up. Should we have just not told them? Should Matt have not posted to be on then?

No.

No.

Very ooc

free credit

No

No

personally do not like to miss a fight, but haven't ever stooped to being "paged" through some ooc channel.

Although technically meta-gaming, I can see the benefits (getting a balanced fight for both sides) outweigh the downsides (less immersive RP). If the raid is being co-ordinated through Skype, that's another matter, but a call to arms is OK in my book

It's how it is....or at least is in Achaea

also because many people like me dont (and dont want to) have the mains to contact other players in the game, it is indeed misleading

yea

metagaming bad

i don't think it's unfair

Definitely unfair, but it doesn't have to be like that!

credit

but I don't think so.

free credit

Kinda!

Just had my first encunter with it.

So many cities do this I'm learning

yes

Whether you can stop it or not, I absolutely thing it's unfair. It's metagaming, and honestly that's wrong, because you're using external factors to affect internal events and push towards a certain outcome. If people aren't in realms to defend, then they aren't there to defend. Calling for aid over Skype is more than a bit distasteful.

What about setting it so that a rading party can only increase a set amount. Say you start you raid with 6 people in your party. During a sanctioned raid, you can add a max of 3 more people. The party cannot be changed beyond this addition until the sanctioned raid is over. There must also be a minimum of 1 Archae month between sanctioned raids you can participate in.