IRE Asks: Would you play a hardcore character?

Permadeath MMO game

Permanent character death is often associated with games that encourage griefing, full corpse looting and very little to no roleplay value. There's a certain stigma attached to permadeath that hardcore MMOs haven't necessarily helped dissuade, and maybe it's too untamed of a beast for mainstream MMOs. But there's no denying that a niche crowd exists for it, and no one knows more about niche crowds than Iron Realms!


Losing your character would be extremely disheartening to any IRE player, especially if you have valuables such as artefacts and real estate. but what if the option were available to new characters? On one hand it could add a certain level of realism to the faction based PvP, especially with the recent war systems, but it could also increase the level of throw-away griefer alts.


If such an option were available, would you give it a try? How would it change the Iron Realms environment for better and for worse? Should hardcore characters start out at a higher level? Would you try to permadeath us IRL for trying such a thing?


Comment below!


...but perhaps with a new character.

I've put hundreds of hours of work into Ahrehn, and losing her completely would be awful. But with a new character, it could be fun to experiment with permanant death since it does add a level of realism.

However, it could lead to more griefing and less roleplay.

It would be interesting if you could only pray once per day or so.

I am against permadeath, especially in a game where you can buy systems to fight better. Moreo er, all the time spent on building a character wouls be wasted! What I would do was to build a permaseath arena (or semideath, like 1 month or so) . Duels there would be interesting. Or maybe a permadeath during an event, but really I do not fancy the idea.

i agree

I agree.

I agree.

I agree.

But I myself wouldn't fight with a charcter I havn't developed and I don't want to lose a character I have developed. So, I'd never get involved.

Knowing that I could lose all my progress in an instant as soon as I hit a lagspike would drive me never to put time into playing to begin with.

Agreed. We all need a little security knowing the time we spend into something is safe, to an extent.

don't we all?



sure. Other systems might better accomodate a lack of security. And that lack could make things more real/exciting from an RP point of view.

Wouldn't agree? o.o


I dislike permadeath in games that require a bit of hack-and-slash to get anywhere, and so IRE games are really not suited to that sort of dynamic -- however, that being said, I have played games where it does happen and it can be a very interesting addition. It adds a touch of care to how you handle your character.


There'd certainly be less raiding and ganking during hunts, I think.

quite true.

You would not be so careless about what you do with your character if there was something like this waiting for them.


It's not a real threat to your security; it just makes you have to do more boring grinding, which is frustrating.


Not in a mud. One reason I think a certain RP intensive game fails.

It is just pointless to even attempt to play. 

At that point, it stops really being a game, and just becomes a glorified IRC roleplay setting.

yes yes.

Only pointless to play as a powergamer. 'course, IRE games aren't set up to accomodate Permadeath.



its evil

bad bad bad!

I think it would be hard to balance the two, but sure would be interesting.

and interest is all we need!



Really? So people would play. Die once and log or switch to an alt. Doesn't seem like that adds much.

The griefing aspect is the killer here

This would be abused soo hard I think.

Or people would extort protection money to protect you from "accidents" that could befall you. From their knives.

What do you mean, "He accidentally fell on his knife thirty times?"

You'd go through a lot of characters. Which could be a good or a bad thing, I think.

very hard!

Completely agree.



and how.

To form a gank squad.

If my main char wasn't permadeath. It'd have to be an option for new characters only.





I just think in DnD, I had a DM that told us to roll like 10 characters as his campaign would have us burn through them all.  There was no attachment really to any of my characters and was no fun.

...I think the real threat of death can make them, and the events of the story, more real and relevant to me. Being afraid for them can increase the excitement of things as well.

The problem is you can't generally avoid the 'stupid deaths'. When LoTRO was released it had (and still does) titles for making it to various levels without dying. Problem being that on release the servers were not stable and thousands of people died to server hangups and connectivity issues.


Most MUD develepers take the attitude that saying connected is the customer's problem, I've never agreeded. My feeling is that all internet games should not needlessly penalize players for server and backbone issues (many of which are detectable).

Thanks for posting.

But the threat of death can always strengthen the attachement. Has to be built first, though.

It could.


I like playing a game the is -similar- to RL but not exactly like it. I can be a smartass and not realize the effects of RL, such as a death, excetera. Also, that means death in hunting would permanently lose your character, rezzing...well, would that be an option? Or is death death? When I have a bad day RL, I can come to my GAME and burn off my frustrations...if I die, well, it's my own stupidity but...losing my character that I've put time and heart into? Nah, it doesn't appeal to me. I think you'd lose basically all PvP and your RP would be greatly reduced as well. May as well go back to RL.


That's short for Roleplaying Intensive MUDs. Though they also tend not to be so based around bashing for XP, which is sorta silly RP-wise, as well.

Or is death death? - the question that has plagued mudkind since time immemorial.

smart answer.

I probably would NOT go for this exactly. Just the effort put into characters makes deletion seem a little extreme.


I've seen some MUSHes offer a death system where the character WOULD be deleted, but only if first they marked themselves as killable, then agreed via a coded RP system that they were killed in RP. Of course, this is based more on theater roleplay, rather than a random, skill-weighted dice-roll.


However, the lure of permadeath is quite attractive in many ways. It would for sure make the whole experience a whole lot more believable and "life" would be much much more valuable a commodity. Perhaps a happy medium somewhere...

I don't think I would give up on the games altogether, but it definitely would make things a lot more difficult - I think the death system that's in place right now is fantastic. Games with ridiculous death penalties discourage exploration and trying new things, and in my opinion, that's one of the best things about any MMO.

What's that, your router died, oh, well there goes your character you just spent hours working on. Cause you had the audacity to bash, hunt, do anything that might get you killed.

is an excellent point.

How dreadful lag spikes can be at times, that could lead to a loss of... many characters. Of course it would make killing those who Grief quit, alot more satisfying as well....

Though the griefing itself would be more annoying :/

Yep. Good point indeed. I remember my old router reset at 1am every day, and it's so easy to forget the time...

To lose all the progress on my Demigod...

Not a demigod, but seconded.

also, i like your avatar.

a truly excellent point!

Reminds me of the song titled "Big Bad World".

But seriously, I've died far too many times to this. I would've stopped playing a long time ago if perma-death was possible.

Well, the world would have to be designed in such a way where simple strolls down the road wouldn't suddenly have you encounter zombies. You could get away with that capricious sort of thing in worlds where death isn't death.

This would be why I wouldn't want it.



It can either enrich or throw RP out the bat. Even if you made it so that they can get back all that OOC credits and get them on an alt, I'd disagree. And everyone likes lolraiding.

lolraiding. No.

Suddenly, PVP ceases to exist, and everyone hides in their cities behind guards.

Hides in the portals! Who's going to leave to certain death?

Probably a lot of people would stop playing

I agree



...I'd run a hardcore character no matter what. It was fun and added difficulty that the rest of the game just couldn't provide for me. Since then, other games I've tried that had such settings I'd take full advantage of. However, none of those were games like this, where my character actually had a life that could be manipulated. Should it be put in? Sure, why not? I've no doubt that some people would enjoy that option, though it'd take a bit of work to get it just right so those who aren't interested can go on without all the worry that would follow. Would I try it, though? Probably not. I'm here for an escape from the real world, and a hardcore character would not be the best way to do it.

Wrong! Diablo II is always new.


Losing your character forever? Nothing I look for... I'm even afraid of touching the hardcore button in most RPGs.


On the other hand, there are some cases when I would accept a permanent death or at least "loot corpse" death. I could agree with it, though, if there were certain conditions for perma death. Like hitting a certain level of infamy- at least making the corpse lootable in such cases would make people less mad at serpents, which might in turn stop the permanent nerfing of our skills.


yay to corpse looting!

I remember playing a mud refered to as 'DR' (don't want to advertise it). Which had corpse looting. It added a lot to the game, but also cost them a lot of players. Two-edge sword.

Why would anyone buy artifacts. Artifacts would have to be to the account.

... of fun, really. I played hardcore for a bit in D2, but I enjoy being reckless more, and the total level of safety needed for a hardcore char is just not what I'm looking for.



I would not. Would seem like a waste to spend money in the game for stuff die and loose everything.

You could transfer said stuff to a new character?

Which could be just as bad.

I hate XP loss on death. Much more than Permadeath. Permadeath makes the threat of death real in the game, which adds realism and emotion. XP loss just makes me frustrated because I have to grind more to make up for it, which is soooo boring and lame.

I guess I already think of myself as a hardcore player, though I define hardcore a little differently.  I think it would be funny at this stage of the game to see who lines up to kill Tekla permanently if that option became available. 

While it is possible to have a playable game with permanent death, there are several conditions that make it nearly unworkable in an existing game like Achaea:

1. There should be no mix of "hardcore" and non-"hardcore" characters, or else a non-hardcore character can hunt hardcore characters at no real risk to themselves.

2. Existing characters should not be made "hardcore".  People have invested too much in many characters to lose one to a lucky ambush.

3. The effect of internet outages/disconnections/lag would have to be eliminated somehow.  Losing a character to an enemy is one thing.  Losing a character to something far below your level just because you were disconnected is just frustrating.

4. Hardcore characters would have to advance substantially faster than current characters.  No hardcore character is likely to last the time it takes current Achaea characters to get to Dragon.

5. All real-money purchases (including the results of spent credits) would have to be transferable from a dead hardcore character to a new character.


The one way it might work (assuming the technical issues in condition 3 could be dealt with) is to have hardcore characters alongside the non-hardcore characters that do advance faster (perhaps using a quadratic progression of experience per level rather than the exponential one that Achaea currently uses, plus possibly more lessons per credit spent), have real-money purchases be transferable from a dead hardcore character to a new one, and have the hardcore characters be "hardcore" only with respect to deaths from other hardcore characters or non-player characters/creatures.  (i.e. if a non-hardcore character kills a hardcore character, or aids in doing so, the hardcore character resurrects just like a non-hardcore one.)

Well said.

this works with me 100%, and to fix the router thing, make anything below a certain level on a hardcore character (5 levels for example), be considered "safe", but do what WoW does in these cases, after so many levels, (about 10), the creature stops giving experience at all. When you have a char attack something, do what you have on several IRE games, have a configurable thing that stops the player and asks them if they really want to bother attacking something so weak that it will serve no purpose for killing it. make it risky to try and fight things within five levels of you, and if the character takes three hits that equal at least a fifth of the char's total health without any sort of response when there was more than a little before, with the character on-balance and on-equilibrium, then activate a safemode that automatically boots the character to prevent a kill, and upon log in, have a warning pop up about what had almost happened.

No. Definately not. 

See above

I have one main who I'd hate to see die and never come back. He's virtually me. But, for my alts, I make and kill off them all the time so Hardcore is nto really a problem, but if it's someone I like I'd rather keep them alve

that is the way I feel about it too. Your main wouldn't be good to sacrifice but the fill in alts are ok

I'd hate characters dying permanently.

I have before and I never will again.

Wasn't into the loops and hoops needed to recover gear from a dead D2 HC player. If there was an established ritual or ability to pass on (see: wills or trusts) legacy (artifact) equipment and earned valuables, this would be the safety net people would want. Contrary to the griefing aspect and concerns, you may see a lot MORE roleplay because no one wants to be slain on a whim.  A Dragon or high level playerkiller would be an extremely rare and exceptional character.


Another aspect to look at might be something like "death's door" where a person could be recovered wtihin a short window of time to revive them before permanent wormfood status kicks in.


Fire up, I'll try it!

I played a game once where death was permanent, because it was an absolute RPI game set in middle earth and there wasn't much way to make sense of people not being dead once you killed them. But it also had a very different focus, and a very mature player base, so people never attacked others without a roleplayed out reason, and even then the culture valued looking for creative ways of handling situations in ways that were both in-character but didn't kill anyone if it could be avoided.

if I thought that the player base of achaea would actually do that, I think perma deaths could be fun, but so many people just play to attack each other... so I can't see it working out. This is also coming from somebody who has never had any interest in learning combat ic, so I could be bias 

I'd probably give it a try on an alt, but I don't think it would work well within the current rules of Lusternia. It's the kind of thing that a whole game would have to be balanced around. For instance, there would have to be some kind of system to severely inhibit or prevent ganking people in non-pk areas, and even then a simple trip to Faethorn to influence Fae becomes a game ending problem. (I don't even want to think about how this would affect Imperian, where the whole world is open-pk, and even under the current rules newbies have to run for their lives to avoid being randomly ganked outside of their home city)

As other people have mentioned, internet connection issues would somehow have to be accounted for, and I can't think of any way to do it (the guys at IRE might be though?). In his youth, Luenn was killed by a weevil when my internet provider decided to perform unsheduled maintenance on their server.

Credits would also have to be accounted for. I can just imagine a top tier player who's payed thousands of credits for lessons and artifacts loosing it all to a quick ambush and forgetting to put up their defences. Do those artifacts then go to the killer? To the victims family? what if the victim doesn't have a family? Perhaps to a legacy character?


tl;dr The whole game would have to be balanced around this issue for it to be viable. The current IRE games aren't so it wouldn't be.


How ressurection abilities would work would also have to be accounted for. If they're allowed, then effectively all this would do is disable praying (which I always thought was the least RP friendly way to be ressurected anyway). Abilities like conglut would ironically make bashing off prime safer than bashing on prime. Also, resurgem covens would give Serenwilde a massive advantage which would have to be accounted for. Then you'd have to think about anti-ressurection abilities (behead, fossilize etc.), which at the moment only really serve to add insult to injury, would suddenly become griefers heaven.


Not in any IRE game. Perhaps in a game like Awan describes.

I would probably try it, but, overall, I think it would make game mechanics and enjoyability not as good.


And I can't say it enough times. Permanent death would be horrible for IRE games in every way.

Yeah, it would be fun. The best way to hook people into any given situation is by giving them risk, making them afraid. This borderline never happens in IRE games because the strongest reaction you can elicit is "fffffff I just lost 25 minutes of bashing". Having reason to be concerned and careful, while still maintaining that sense of adventure and desire to do dangerous, exciting things, would be great.

I don't see it remotely fitting into the IRE business model of course.


It would be interesting and a fun challenge to try with a new character, but I could see myself dying rather quickly to a rat or a lycopod though.

No, I would never want this implemented. It would be to frustrating having all the time you spent on a character go down the drain because of a mistake or death. I die to many times so it would be to frustrating for me. Imagine would they even work?

The thrill of death is what makes it fun!

Hell no.

What he said.

I don't think the idea is really feasible in Achaea as it stands now. Half the point of the game is to enter conflict and have adventures, both of which require a little risk to life. If permadeath was a mechanic, I know I for one would be far less likely to enter activities (no matter how fun!) where I could permadie. In real life, our own permadeath is a pretty good deterrent for activities that much of Achaea is based around (the combat, the adventures, the conflict...). Realism shouldn't really be a goal in this regard, no matter the gravity it gives to death. 


No thanks.

Permanent death makes some sense when character is disposable, the game is very RP intensive while death is rare and result of your own actions. Every IRE game is complete opposite: it takes weeks of grinding to get a playable character, RP is almost optional and you die routinely to lag or  because artiwhore#23267 feels like it today. 

If you think about it, the article is incorrect.  More people would create throwaway alts, so that their main would not be permakilled.  Also if someone was mad enfough at someone, they could throw an army of alts at that person, in order to kill them (IE Grief). 


I'd be willing to try it, but ONLY if they allowed you to transfer your artefacts from a dead character to a live one.  Not sure how they would do this with help seconds, but hey...there has to be a way.

I would never play a hardcore character.

I'm still not convinced that permadeath = hardcore


"Losing your character would be extremely disheartening to any IRE player, especially if you have valuables such as artefacts and real estate."


Eh, what about the people? Your friends, family, housemates, ordermates? These are the true valuables of this game.

Well said.

Something happens ICily to lost all that already...

Not sure - I think I would  - it would be a different game though!


Maybe bring it in as a consequence of aging - once you hit 100, you only get the one life.  It would encourage you to get out there and do something and would also encourage elder characters to consolidate their power or die.

Or make immortality a reward for level 100. And xp only from killing-blow...


Worth a shot.

I have spent too much time and money to loose it all, so no I would not like this.  I think one would have a choice in the matter.

I'd like to try it, but then on a special hardcore server. Artifacts would need to be either disabled there, or they'd be given to each character you create.

I would support the artiless version. Every character would have to be hardcore for this idea to work at all, and it likely wouldn't make money (unless you could pay credz for a rez, thus destroying the RP aspect).



I agree they would have to transfer the artifacts

Short answer. NO

if could be come some kind of undead jester after death?

terrible idea.  This does NOT work in IRE games at all and there is no way to change that without changing the games entirely

never gonna work

be much longer but it somehow never got accepted basically NO

Considering you guys love to perma shrub, I doubt this would change much. If anything, it would make you more money so I'm surprised it's not implemented already. Money > customers, right?

sour grapes Bonko? ;-)


While my experience is not vast MOST cases I've seen the permashrubbing has been resonable...unfortunately I can only say most cases...


I would not do a hardcore charcter

it will ruin the fun.


I think for me that would take away from the fun that I have playing. I would be to worried about stepping on something and breaking my leg, lying in a ditch, and dieing. BOO!

-es, yes, yes! I've wanted a MUD with permadeath for a loooong time...


But Achaea certainly isn't it, and MKO wouldn't be a good choice by this point, either. With credz and the steep learning curve associated with PvP, there IS a large precedent for griefing, especially considering that permadeath would be optional instead of mandatory (thus nullifying the one restraining factor, ie consequences).


I have only seen one, in my searches, that could be a permadeath game and that was BAT Hardcore. I never tried it but I know it is there.

I would not play with permadeath, unless I became a ghost after death (then I might make a ghost alt).

a whole seperate class!  It could be hella awesome!

I don't know, I wish death meant something, anything.  Currently it's not more inconvienient than just dropping a some gold.  LAME!

It's just not a plausible concept with any game you have to invest in. So much time, thought, and sometimes money goes into your character that killing them off, even for the sake of RP, would leave the player with a dissatisfied feeling.

And honestly, if people created new characters for the reason of "hardcore" death, it wouldn't be that interesting. At all. Knowing your character is going to die, who is going to invest that much into them and give the rest of our players any legit attachment? We all know character attachment (to our own and others) is partially what makes these IRE games special. It would end up being an annoyance.

It'd be different if the game was something similar to D&D where death and re-rolling characters is the norm, but that would get boring really fast.

I think it would be really cool if there was a hardcore mirror of Aetolia or Achaea. That way the dynamic wouldn't get messed up in the existing games. That would also solve the problem of really high level artied out toons interacting with the permadeathers. It would give you something fun to do during downtime and you would go into it knowing what to expect.

is so win. I love it.


I've played permadeath in several games. Depending on the game, your relationship to your character changes a lot.

I've put hundreds of hours into Hhaos and would be extremely upset up if he was able to die permanently

no one really likes it, it only works in games were characters matter little


100% Agree

Even for new players. A group would soon arise who hunted these new short lived perma dead newbies and they would never stand a chance. However I do like the idea of something along these lines that is less extreme than perma death. Perhaps the ability to throw another player in jail for a day or something like that. Also the only able to pray once per day might make things interesting. Maybe these rulse should only apply to certain areas like the pk zones we now have. Just a few ,"less terrible" ideas.

just no. If I wanted that in a game experience I'd go back to D2 and forget about IRE games very quickly.

thats effectively what the Quashar did years ago...Lost a lot of friends who just quit Achaea cause they couldn't log in with being instantly I recall the Quashar got broken up soon after the admins.

I don't think it would work very well, as described. Scary thought :O

I don't think it would work very well, as described. Scary thought :O

much so

I would be for permadeath if we had a main character  as our main account that is not permadeath for our artifacts and estates, and have any subsiquent characters be permadeath but can have the artis and estates to use.  i think anything that is payed for in RL currency should stay with you no matter how many characters you go through.   Then again, losing my level one hundred and two character would be the pits :(

I would be for permadeath if we had a main character  as our main account that is not permadeath for our artifacts and estates, and have any subsiquent characters be permadeath but can have the artis and estates to use.  i think anything that is payed for in RL currency should stay with you no matter how many characters you go through.   Then again, losing my level one hundred and two character would be the pits :(

I would be for permadeath if we had a main character  as our main account that is not permadeath for our artifacts and estates, and have any subsiquent characters be permadeath but can have the artis and estates to use.  i think anything that is payed for in RL currency should stay with you no matter how many characters you go through.   Then again, losing my level one hundred and two character would be the pits :(

Lol. IRE wants to know if you'd put your more-expensive-than-a-car character on the line. lololol

Of course there would exist things like:


Artifact of rebirth: 1000 credits!


Making $.... making $...

I'd probably be safe being always in my coffin ;) Till some lolalt jackass went around digging up various graveyards for easy kills for the lols.

If you got to reuse your credits/artifacts upon each death on a new toon...  Character level/equipment/honours all that would be wiped, but you don't lose all that money you spent, then yeah, I'd do that.

I might try it with a new character, but can't say that I would be very much inclined to do or earn anything of value knowing that it will be lost as soon as that character days. Perhaps if there was a way to have things of value (like artefacts that cost real world money) transfer after a certain period of time, it would be more appealing.

How about a new game similar to the current IRE games, but every time your character dies, (s)he drops to level 5 immediately, all skills reset, and you get credits back based on how many you had converted to lessons?

No Permadeath Please please please


How about NO, NO permadeath.

a permadeath would completely make me turn the other way.  I rarely go bashing because I don't like dieng and losing the experience. Losing all my stuff on death would be such a saddening thing I don't think I would be able to take it (or maybe I would after throwing a few hundred at IRE to replace lost stuff, I know they would like that).

Without options to purchase new lives or obtain methods to 'extend' life.  Maybe through descendents, you can be 'birthed' into you're son...or daughter...I see no purpose in perma death.  I couldn't even tolerate whole system with its complexity if there were all made this way.  Artifacts would not serve a purpose unless you had reasons or abilities to pass on certain things and traits. 


If it were an option.  I would not personally use it for a character mainly because i would not enjoy losing all the things i've owned or obtained.  I still don't even like the fact you go idle people can steal from you.  However it makes sense in realistic terms of design when people sit around an do nothing, people run the chance of being attacked.  I just wish there was more to it...stealing from shrines, homes, property.  Each of these STILL make more sense to add in depth.

With the undead jester idea

no way


it'd have to be a hardcore only world.  Any real money spent would have to be applicable to new characters created, so there wouldn't be any money loss, which complicates things because over time you end up with new players with tons of "experience".  Could maybe mitigate it by gating how and when credits could be spent, but that has a whole host of other issues to consider.

not with the current 'conflict' system and playerbase, there would have to be major changes in rules and stuff. But if they made a hardcore achaea where everyone was mature enough I would give it a shot!

do not want.

A hardcore game has to have the following things in a roleplaying environment:

- A way to train without risk.

- A combat system capable of incapacitation rather than murder.

- A way to remove potential monetary loss to the player.  Perhaps an earned inheritance kind of thing.

- The game absolutely has to be built from the ground up with the idea of player death in mind.


I might try it, but not on any of the current IRE games.


One imagines that RP would not be a major concern of such a realm. If you don't live past 18 what is the point exactly? Why not just go play a first person shooter?

I definitely would not go for it. What would be the point of playing and putting so mucch effort into your character if it would all be taken away? No one would waste money on credits anymore either. It's a bad idea.

No, it's going to break my heart!

YES, but not a chance with the character ive spent the last year playing

not a fan of the permadeath idea, i can't even think of a way it could work.

Was thinking about it and I don't think i would like to try it, not even with a new character and certainly not with my current one.


It'd be an interesting thing to try. Maybe a with a few characters ...but in the end, no. I prefer to die and come back to kill whoever killed me

It wouldnt make sense at all.

you would lose all the players.

Apart from super realistic RP, I do not see any other benefit to the game or to the players themself. I insist that the maximum hardcore allowed should be a RL day without playing. Also, because of lags and other misfortunes, it might be unfair as well. Not to mention the dramatic decrease of users logget at simultaneously, idling in RL and waiting to re-enter the realms. Another idea would be a permadeath arena, where people go ther to solve RP issues; but again, given the possibility to buy systems, it would be unfair.  Plus, all the artifacts and stuff need to be eligible to be disposed of by a Last will and testament.

My opinion is that with permadeaths IRE would lose many players.

perma death makes only works if you didn't care about the game.. trolls would enjoy it as they would create 100's of characters a week like they do now :)

One of the reasons why I like Lusternia is that I have certain goals...yeah most of em complete but essentially it's what goals that has kept me playing for so long.

stupid idea for the cost of crap you pay here.  You might have a viable model if you consider lowering the cost of artefacts/lessons/everything for a HC character.

Not really interested

If my artifacts/lessons/properties were transferred to my next character, I would consider permanent death. Even then, it would most likely be a resounding 'no'. I know some muds have permanent death after dying x amount of times, which is better than losing your character immediately.


What would be interesting was if your soul would get lost in whatever version of the Underworld that your IRE game of choice has, and couldn't return to the real world for x amount of days. It would have other areas/thingies down there.


Yes please.

I kind of like the concept of having a limited amount of lives, but you can buy some, with IG currency. PK would not take lives.

There would be many more "issues" being flung around if lives were limited

Are you insane?

For that I would play an arcade game

I'd actually be interested in it, provided there was some sort of reincarnation system and some way of handling xp loss. Like getting all credits and lessons back on a new character after you die - maybe the recovery being spaced out over the period of a week to prevent loltrolls with transed skills switching from city to city. Bashing is the main issue I can think of, apart from the obvious ones of losing all your IC contacts, positions, honours, etc. I've hit level 101 and then some, and there is no way I'd bother bashing a new character to endgame every time I die. That's just crazy, even assuming anyone can hit endgame without dying.

As it is, Achaea's RP pace is slow, and most new characters would be hard-pressed to get a decent level of interaction with fellow players on their first week in. If we do put these hardcore rules in, I'd expect those new characters would poof before the week passes.


Also, this limits interaction quite a lot! Especially with enemies. You'll never know if an enemy will go straight to the point and kill you without even RP-ing anything. It makes things too risky.

There would be no point to it so everyone would have to be the same default level.

I remember back in the day, (about 10+ years ago) DragonRealms used to be permadeath if you died. People would grief, grief, grief just so they can rob your grave and take your stuff. Imagine training and working on your character for about 2 years, then all of a sudden some lame-ass who kept out of the mainstream of things came up for no reason at all and just killed you? Yep! That's how it used to be. Then people got so sick and tired of it that SIMUtronics decided, okay, no more permadeath! And also we would like to introduce a new skill called resurrection! haha! Those were the days!

Why would anyone play that game

It would be scary, and I don't think I'd go for it. However, I've seen other RPGs (that, you know, took those first two letters seriously) that had a permadeath system where you had more than one life, or you could go softcore and have infinite lives.


Hardcore characters were able to die five (maybe ten) times before, in essence, Maya would tell them that they really screwed up that time and dust the character. Was a lot harder to die in those games though.


yep fragile we are...and I play these games to be an imortal hero of some sort or other not to live real life on a server....

It's fun for certain games, like say when I used to play Age of Reptiles Mud or the spinoff Early Human one: Children of Gaea, where the whole point of the game was survival. Eat or be eaten, defend your territory/tribe against the other pack of raptors/tribes, expand your territory, fight for dominance, breeding rights etc. Every move you made would be preceeded by scenting or looking around for the bigger dino/predators, and if you were careless you ended up being lunch. There wasn't any 'verbal' channel system outside of the ooc one, and you had to get creative with emoting behavioral cues and in game emotes.

There's also Federation 2 where you can buy insurance against deaths, though each time its used the cost for insurance rises unless you bribe a certain npc to wipe the deaths to 0 again. But really, death there is really difficult unless you happen to be very blind to warning signs like 'don't enter here extreme radiation' or actually fly your space shuttle purposefully into the sun. And permadeath is only achieved if you want to by dying twice without insurance coverage.

Maybe if IRE were to do a new game based around that idea from the start it would work, but i don't think it would as an added effect in any existing IRE game.


Also I would never play this hypothetical IRE game.

But there would be no RP which is the whole point of IRE games.  

I'd make random characters that were hardcore, and when I tired of them?



I will admit though, sometimes there are days though that I wish others die and stay dead


add the option!

No one would ever get very far, unless you happen to be the biggest badass of them all.

and there would be alot of throwaway alts i think making another mud altogether where you can only fight people close to your cb and has permadeath in it would be cool.. i would play that game


Maybe once you're above a certain level, permadeath shouldn't happen to you. Level thirty?

It's not April 1st! I'm so confused... how can such a ridiculous idea be asked with any tone of sincerity outside of April Fool's Day?

Here's the line of troubles you have that come to mind immediately for me, even if things like MKO's duels are used carefully for practicing and such (avoiding a broad number of accidental deaths).

1) Combat's kill-oriented, bashing and exploration are often quick means to deaths early on, and character levels are centered around precisely those things.

2) Every little disagreement already risks turning into lolpk. Competent, sensible, people can at present laugh such things off. Trade that in for permadeath and you have the incompetent griefers killing off anyone who disagrees with them.

3) The sensible people lost in stage 2 = often your (now former) city, order, guild, house, etc leaders. When you have a political structure that's player driven, giving so simple a way to send it crashing down as a lolpk is... well as I said to start, ridiculous.

4) You now have little more than griefers leading griefers, turning the city guards against any who disagree. Why argue with, or even kick the source of dissent... when you can just have them killed by your trusty swarm of NPCs? If this was an acceptable leadership paradigm, Anders would still lead Krondor.



And here, I thought noone would actually read all that, I expected less "+1" and more "tl;dr"! 

See above




I played a game a long time ago where permadeath was only possible in an arena. You had to type accept a couple different times before you could enter to duel with a fellow player. Not a whole lot of players did it, but the ones who won usually received in game items from the gods.

That sounds pretty intense as an optional thing. Would really suck to d/c in the middle of that fight and die :S

I don't think this would work for ir the way it is now  Ithink the best would if you wante this  to have mirror worlds where hard core chars could be created and developed.  but, not have them play along side in the same world as the none hard core.  it'd be too confusing and I could see issues cropping up like weeds

It's going to break my heart if my char permanently dies

Yeah, I don't think it would be healthy for an already established game to have throwaway alts being created. I wouldn't want to waste my time getting to know people because of the chance that they will die and that's it. Perhaps make it to where you die until someone raises your corpse, or it decays (in a day). So if you get killed, your stuck as a soul for 24hrs or until someone gets your body. (You would have to also make it to where bodies can't get carried away from the battle field)

Absolutely not. That'd be so traumatizing.



Perhaps if you created an entirely different RPG game for this particular style? I would love to play and be apart of opening a new world in IRE history that had permadeath.

This could either be a good and/or a bad thing for the gameplay of the game - permadeath on 'hardcore characters' might seem an alternative RP, and in moderation and done correctly might rightly be so, but that might then encourage a culture of 'throwaway' characters, which never is good. Given the fact that there is not much 'new blood', so to speak (and only from my experience with new players and so on), that stick around for a considerable amount of time, perhaps, something else should be done...

If there was something where you could do prayers or offer essence to a divine in order to gain deaths, I would be okay with playing a hard core character. Otherwise, I'm just not willing to risk my character suddenly poofing because I'm an idiot and end up dying to something.

^ QFT - especially last sentence.



imagine forgetting to "def" up and dying because of it....ultimate faceslap!!!

I remember in Materia Magica, an HC character had 10 deaths, so there was a little area for error there....I still wouldn't do it.

No I won't!

seems like a pretty bad idea

I would not play a hardcore character

but only if there were ways to separate the risk of permadeath from incentives to participate in pvp... also, lag spikes would seriously suck

Hardcore characters would not gel with the current mechanics in most IREs where death is common. 

Playing on the hardcore EQ servers (with permadeath) was by far my favorite MMO experience.

I just don't see the appeal..It might be exciting, but losing everything just seems like its a waste of time waiting to happen.

Hardcore gaming is in its own niche, to be sure. As a person who only really plays for the socializing aspect, having my character die permanently from some random raid (or you know, the lucky slivven) would utterly destroy all the relationships that she has built up. It would be such a pain to get re-acquainted with everyone that I once knew, considering that they're not supposed to know who I really am in my new character form.


Very high risk...well, at least arenas will get a boost in usage!  (maybe)

It's an interesting idea, but would be very destructive for roleplay

I love permadeath in Nethack but it's not practical in games without a pause button. If the connection drops or someone knocks on the door or the baby cries, none are really within the player's control so losing your character would be brutal.

I'm waaaaay too kamikaze for that.

guess i aint so hardcore

My poor main!

I'd pass. It may be for some people... Not really for me though.

Part of what makes MUDs special is the ongoing, vibrant world. Characters dying off all over the place would destroy this.


Again, no.

Not with all the time and money invested in Koe I wouldn't. I guess it could be done, but the leveling would have to be ridiculously easy(not one level a week or so) and artefacts/land would have to be dirt cheap.


Part of what I love about Achaea is exploring.  I can only imagine never wanting to explore again if I have to worry about walking into a room and getting creamed.

With all the stuff that people sink into characters money/timewise, this would be terrible...unless somehow that could be completely shifted over one way. Still, there's just so much RP that would be lost.


No.  For all the reasons stated by everyone else who said no.  Achaea is a very dynamic realm, and some of us have had our characters for well over a decade.

geezers, all o' ye.

No because then no one would fight because one bad day, unlucky power outage, router drop, lag would kill all your work.


Who would?

Oh heck yes, adding a mortal consequence in the game would probably make everyone... I don't know.. not act like they're immortal?



I wouldn't like having permanent death in game.

Only if my char was Ashtani

playing experience. I don't know if I would.

Perma-death is antithetical to an in-depth roleplaying game. Can't develop a character if you're having to roll up a new one after every raid.

hardcore mudsex amirite?

Create a new character, login, trial.. what's all of this about? Oh, what a nice fluffy grezDEAD. Create new character. Ok, what WAS this all about?

permadeath would suck

Would love to play a hardcore character though IRE's aren't really suited for it with hundred(s) of dollars worth of investment (or the time equivalent) to have a semblence of a good pk character.

Allow our artifacts to transfer over with death and Ill gladly start over and over and over and over.

It would be awesome for roleplaying reasons, you have a family, the chance of dying for real and such, but there must be a way one can return if one wishes. But after death not show up on honors at all, so that if you choose, you can remain dead for a while. Would be interesting.

There's no way permadeath could be feasible unless it applied to everyone, otherwise it would become an enormous grief-fest. And then there'd need to be greater protection on newbies, or everyone would die when they'd just stepped blinking into the sunshine. But I don't think there's any way to *convert* a game to permadeath. People have put too much time into their characters already to pull the rug out from under them.

Too much griefing. And trolling. And a slew of other "because this is the internet and I ~do wut I want~" reasons that this wouldn't work in the atmosphere of Achaea. 


Then there's the issue of artefacts...

I'd never play a hardcore character, because I've invested too much into my current ones to lose.

I'd give it a try but I don't think it suits any of the current IRE games. The only game  I've played that benefits from permadeath is feary tale online.

I think it would only work with ire games if artifacts could be transferred to a new character after the permadeath of the prior. Also, only permadeath for those who haven't already reached end game. Overall though, the increase and abuse of griefers would outweigh any benefits.

I wouldn't be happy. lol

well, i'm open to give anything a try once. i think it would hugely damage both our leveling systems and combat as well as politics. if everytime you died you stayed dead... city leaders would be changing constantly due to death... though i'm unsure what warsystems it is mentioned above...? hrmm...

but I don't see the benefit of having permanent deaths.  So when you die, you can't use that player anymore?  That would be like purchasing Halo, dying in training mode and the game locks up - not allowing you to play anymore.

I can't see a big benefit to that.

I would play, but not if implemented in the existing games.  It would need to be a separate game/server with a different culture from the start.

Goodness no. After all I've put into my character? It's a game. Who looks for realism in these things?

I don't understand why character that could die permanently is called a hardcore character.  How and when character dies has nothing to do with how hardcore the character is, at least to me.

Primary reason I disappeared from Midkemia: Utter hatred of someone I could do literally nothing about that kept coming back and coming back and coming back and coming back. Permanent death is a wonderful thing, when it's considered from the ground up. There's a number of ways to do it, too.


Some systems have a Karns setup. The less you slaughter players, the more Karns you can have, and the faster you get them back. Die to a player when you don't have any Karns, and it's bye-bye  character.


Others do what I've seen mentioned in other comments. Faster progression. Kinda works, but kinda meh.


Other fun possibilities include permanent ghosting instead of just character deletion. What can the ghost do? Again varies. Maybe wander the world? Possibly confined to the area you died in (or the area outside it in the event that you're considered an enemy there). Or maybe confined to an afterlife. Maybe you could be summoned from the afterlife or even resurrected by an expensive/difficult PLAYER-PERFORMED ritual.


Or just flat, you die, you can't login to that character anymore, though the character file should remain for awhile, regardless of system, to give staff a chance to check out the circumstances and make sure it was a reasonable kill if the victim complains.


Whatever the system, the most important thing is that it needs to be considered from the game's start, due to just how much impact it would have on gameplay and balance. Maybe have an account system instead of just characters so credits and so on can carry over easily. Plus then you could have account-bound credits, rewards, and messages, and an extra poke to all players against multiplaying.

Bad idea for a game that promotes immersion.

It may be fun on some level, but overall, it will kill the game, inevitably. Maybe a new server where your main character will have a mirror character, and permadeath only lasts for a full day?

I am Bill Nighy, and I do not support hardcore characters in MUDs, specially IRE. You need time to really flourish, and to have all your efforts gone in an instant due to some raging maniac griefer is a big turn off.


I love permadeath and I would play a hardcore character if given the option. It enriches the roleplay and rewards those who play realistically.

I'd get a sword and go hunting IRL. :p

I grew up on permadeath MUDs, so I'm used to the heartbreak that comes with losing a long-lived PC to random NPC#10345345, but I don't think it would work with how the IRE games are set up.

Nope, not with so many ways to die and how hard it is to get gold and credits at low levels.

Hell. The damned. No. I'd have gone through dozens and dozens of characters if any of the IRE games were permadeath.

Probably lose interest after i died and not try to play again

Only when it's a noob on any of the Diablo games. I'm not a big fan of 'hardcore' especially when you're unable to attain something as rewarding as dragon because you're not able to live past a single death.


Double post.

The permanent death thing would be interesting to try once with an unimportant character, but I wouldn't risk investing greatly in a character that could die permanently.

Not sure it's so much a case of better or worse, or RP or no RP. I think permadeath would alter the variety of RP, might even in some ways make it a lot better/cooler, but at the same time when you really develop a personality for your character, you come to love them, especially when you pour hundreds of hours and credits into them as well. It might make you think twice about doing something that might get you killed, like in real life, and add some legitimite tension to the game. Characters could come in and effect history and die as martyrs. Then again, there's always that griefer possibility, too. So it's a trade-off, I think. I'm kind of a wuss, though - I like Lusternia the way it is.

No thanks.

I'd lose it if I had to start over everytime